With the weights forward, players consistently had a more closed face angle at impact, and vice versa when the weights were in the back. Paint chipping still seems to be a concern because most of the models available in stores now are the HyrdoBlast. If your tendency is to miss putts on the left (choose the single bend) Your putter face is probably closed at impact. Each is available in 33, 34 & 35 lengths and comes equipped with SuperStrokes Pistol GTR 1.0 grip. Really pricing out the average golfer in terms of equipment The way these companies are increasing prices for their rehashed offerings will surely prevent new golfers from wanting to take up our game. #vietnameeh, Agree. More photos from the event here. Might try and do my own version of the vault with the yellow alignment since Ive Ben playing the yellow TP5 for a while. The X is a tried a true design. As a recap, the High-Toe 3 wedge features full-face scoring lines and raised micro-ribs. The red one is actually incognitoits like the new one, its milled. I went to GG last week and rolled the TT Stroke Lab 10, the new Spider and the Spider S? With widespread adoption on tours around the world, not only has it become one of the companys top-selling putters of all time, it has truly shifted the paradigm of putter design toward high-MOI mallets.. Im too much of a putter snob to not care about that though. The EX also has a slightly more rounded back shape. Spider X vs Spider Tour By Griffin58, September 14, 2019 in Putters Share Followers 0 Reply to this topic Start new topic Griffin58 Members 55 Now, the Spider x comes along. As youll see in the video at the top of this article, I recently tested TaylorMades new Spider X Hydro Blast putter against the all-new Spider EX model. Equipment is accurate as of the AT&T Championship (Champions) (10/28/13) Driver: Titleist 910D2 (9.5) Shaft: Mitsubishi Bassara W 50 3-wood: Hideki Matsuyama whats in the bag accurate as of the 2023 WM Phoenix Open. Along with the Spider X Hydro Blast, TaylorMade also released three new Spider mallet options for 2021, including the Spider S, Spider SR and Spider EX. New models include the paint-free Spider X Hydro Blast, the high-MOI Spider S and SR and the brand-new Spider EX. The Spider GT Max is offered in two hosel configurations (short slant and single bend), allowing golfers to choose offsets and toe hangs to suit their stroke. Copyright 2023. Still stand by my comments that he will never win another major. LIKE 40 LEGIT 5 WOW 6 LOL 1 NOW AVAILABLE: GolfWRX G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos! The 2021 Spider S will also be available with a L-neck option for added toe hang. Driver: Srixon ZX5 Mk II (9.5 Carl Yuan whats in the bag accurate as of the Farmers Insurance Open. Feels like this would be the answer to my dilemma. It also includes a deep center of gravity created by a heavy 154g stability bar at the rear of the putter which equates to 45% of the putters total weight. Required fields are marked *. Cleveland RTX 6 58 Steelfiber 110 CW Stiff Multimaterial construction to offer maximum stability and increased MOI. This process smooths the putter, leaving the head with the silvery aluminum finish. PXG Blackjack Putter. Also thoughts on going from no sightline to a sightline? More photos of Jason Dufners WITB in the GolfWRX forums. I prefer the way the Spider GT soles behind the ball. Andrew Tursky is the Senior Equipment Editor at GOLF Magazine and GOLF.com. (P6 and onward), Titleist TSR3 13.5 wood head and cover and Cobra Rad XB Palm edition 10.5 head and cover. Cleveland Frontline Elite Elevado 34 UST All In Shaft. Mizzy 4-PW 919 Tour - Modus 120 Shaft: Garsen Ultimate. For TaylorMades all-new Spider putters for 2021including the Spider X Hydro Blast, EX, Spider S, and SRits the little details that make big differences. For some reason the flow neck makes the spider x sit weird on the ground and looks significantly more closed so Ive gone back to the spider tour. Is roll any different or moi any different. Both the 10 and the Spider feel incredibly stable during the putting stroke but I think the Odyssey wins in feel by a hair. WOW, lines and dots used for alignment.pure genius!!! The shape and feel were so much better to me. Love the feel and looks but I've always felt like I had to manipulate them for them to sit totally square. I prefer the auditory feedback of the ten over the Spider. Driver: Cobra-Puma rep rips Bryson over asinine comment and claims hes looking for unicorn driver, Hes learned nothing Olympic legend launches scathing attack on Tiger Woods over tampon apology, Golf fans left bemused following bizarre Jim Nantz blunder, An UP-CLOSE look at Tiger Woods famous Scotty Cameron putter, Best driver 2023: Expert club fitters recommend the best driver for your swing speed, David Feherty ridiculed for Greg Norman comment during LIV broadcast, Tour pro says LIV would be done if Brooks Koepka returned to PGA Tour. Ryan Barath is a club-fitter & master club builder with more than 17 years of experience working with golfers of all skill levels, including PGA Tour players. Ping G425 Max 14.5*, AD-IZ 7S, Taylormade P790 5i - 9i, Steelfiber i95R +1", Taylormade MG 3 46*, 50*, 56*, & 60*,Steelfiber i95R +1" Hope this helps, but highly recommend testing as always. ----------------------------- Seems as though every time I start putting with the 10 and start making quite a few putts I pick up the Spider-X and make even more. The Pure Roll insert features the roll-promoting 45-degree grooves found in the original Pure Roll insert. Maybe its just me. We now see more of a T-shaped white area as well as three alignment dots and two long parallel lines. Must be crappy golfers that feel the need to belittle people who like to examine new equipment offerings. Shafts: Tour Issue Dynamic Gold S400, Putter:TaylorMade Spider X, Odyssey 7 I found the Pure Roll insert plays a little firmer than the Pure Roll and produces more of a tone at impact. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. The head seems to want to wave open and then close during the stroke. All of these Spiders are available for order March 2. Upload or insert images from URL. This allows golfers to use the clean topline and parallel wings to line up to the intended path while still offering a visual aid to behind the ball. Thanks for the thorough review. When I look down I only notice the front piece. The Hi-Toe 3 has a higher center of gravity than a traditionally shaped wedge and is designed to promote a lower launch and more spin for heightened control on full swings. I HATE the Spider-X flange model. Milled aluminum finish, more traditional Spider shape than the GT, and an adjustable weight track system to fit CG to your specific needs. [Odyssey] actually made both of them for me, Schauffele said of the putters in his pre-tournament press conference at Bay Hill on Tuesday. You still have to do all the right things, square impact, great tempo, solid fundamentals, distance control, etc. If the rules changed from allowing 14 to 10 clubs, how much of an impact would it have on scores? Since its aluminum, I wouldnt expect the metal to rust like it could with steel. You cannot paste images directly. Really like the Spider X, but I still have my Spider Tour in play becaause I've learned the hard way that you NEVER bench a putter until it stops performing. Upload or insert images from URL. Cobra F6 3/4 wood w/Kuro KageRSI 2 driving iron w/recoilPSI Tour 4-pw w/S300MD3 50/54/58 Golfers that are wanting to take up the game and feel like they need to buy this sh$thave more money than sensef*ck em! The 2021 TaylorMade Spider EX is a completely new Spider model. As the name suggests, the aluminum body of the putter is being treated with high-pressure water rather than painted. Their face inserts. The shape alteration and the fact there are three colors and three necks to choose from are only a minor parts of the Spider EX story. APPLY NOW: Cleveland Frontline Elite Putters! Went from the Tour back to my Spider Arc. Driver: Cobra-Puma rep rips Bryson over asinine comment and claims hes looking for unicorn driver, Hes learned nothing Olympic legend launches scathing attack on Tiger Woods over tampon apology, Golf fans left bemused following bizarre Jim Nantz blunder, An UP-CLOSE look at Tiger Woods famous Scotty Cameron putter, Best driver 2023: Expert club fitters recommend the best driver for your swing speed, David Feherty ridiculed for Greg Norman comment during LIV broadcast, Tour pro says LIV would be done if Brooks Koepka returned to PGA Tour. Ive used some big putters over the years but those new Stroke Lab's are as point and shoot as it gets. Taylormade Spider GT, 35" w/ Garsen Ultimate. Finish: Platinum/White, Navy/White, Ghost White, Necks: Single-bend, short-slant and flow-neck. The new star insert feels firmer and honestly kind of similar to the old white hot insert imo. Do the Suits at Taylor Made really think that a paint chip is going to affect the roll of the golf ball on the green? Spider GTX builds on the performance and shape of two of TaylorMades most acclaimed putter designs: Spider Tour and Spider X, -Bill Price, Senior director of Product Creation, Putters and Wedges. GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, Yesterday at 04:47 PM, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 20, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 13, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, February 6, GolfWRX_Spotted posted a topic in Tour and Pre-Release Equipment, January 31. Although a bit smaller than the Spider S (5mm), the Spider SR is still a high-MOI head. There is a reason this style of putter is replacing blades. TaylorMade Golf has launched its High-Toe 3 wedge in a new chrome finish. Neither is necessarily better, it just depends on your personal preference. Really liked the spider tour and would likely still be gaming it off its want for the ER2. The red one is actually incognitoits like the new one, its milled. The first version of the Spider S featured a three-line alignment scheme on the top line. His original red putter had a soft Odyssey White Hot insert, whereas his XS Proto came with Toulons popular diamond-milled face. I like them both but just wondering the price jump. TaylorMade Stealth+ 8.0Ventus Black 6X, 45.5" Just bought a Spider-X copper single bend off the bay and expect delivery shortly. It is similar to the Spider S but it is a little more compact and the tungsten cross bar that connects the wings on the Spider S has been replaced with independent weights on the wings. Upload or insert images from URL. All of these have different neck options as well. I dont think you can go wrong with either putter. Driver: Cobra AeroJet LS (10.5 degrees @8.5) The price tag is a bit higher than their other models, but its the best of both worlds. Shape is really good an Im coming around to the feel. Its available in three lengths 33, 34 and 35 and short slant, single bend and center shaft hosel options (select color and hosel options only available in limited lengths). The wedge is designed to generate maximum spin around the greens when the face is rotated open. Nothing can beat getting your own feel on a golf club, especially a putter. Jason Dufner testing a new Cobra 3D printed putter at the 2021 API, Cant seem to chip with forged wedges GolfWRXers discuss. What do the hands do during the impact and follow through? You cannot paste images directly. With this new class of Spider putters, we focused on removing two of those variables: aim and alignment While each putter brings something unique to the table, they are bonded by a foundation of forgiveness, stability, and True Path alignment that makes it easier to aim. Bill Price, Product Creation, Putters & Wedge, The idea of a classic golf club or putter shape wont generally have people reminiscing about a TaylorMade Spider, but the design has been around for well over a decadeand although it has gone through some design tweaks over the years, the modern Spider is here to stay, This putter is all about small changes to an already great design with the most notable being the Hydro Blast finishing process. Paste as plain text instead, I started with the slant neck and decided to give the FB a try. The Spider X insert also feels different than the Spider Tour Black because the insert is 2mm thicker (5mm compared to 3mm) and because of the change to the construction of the body. Paste as plain text instead, The new Spider X also features. Shaft: Garsen Ultimate. I was thinking the best of both worlds would be the spider x with the heel shaft. The Spider EX, on the other hand, comes with a PureRoll2 insert made from co-molded TPU and eight silver aluminum beams (each of the beams also sit at a 45-degree, downward-facing angle). His original red putter had a soft Odyssey White Hot insert, whereas his XS Proto came with Toulons popular diamond-milled face. Available in 34 and 35 and with small slant and single hosel bend options, the GT Max is available in retail from late Spring, priced at $449.00 Your Reaction? This is true of all face-balanced putters, and it applies to the Spider Tour and the Spider X. On 1/30/2023 at 7:37 AM, BackNine08 said: Please put and questions or comments here, Please put any questions or comments here, Please put any questions of comments here, 2022 TaylorMade Spider X vs. TaylorMade Spider GT. vietnameeh, November 21, 2019 in Putters, with black Friday/Cyber Monday coming up. If not, heres my best explaination from personal experience and feel. Shaft: Aldila Rogue Silver 130 MSI 80 TX, Utility: King Cobra LTDx (4), Cobra King Forged CB (5-PW) Titleist 816H2 21* Atmos Blue Tour Spec 8X Arachnophobes beware! The Spider S also offers the same Fluted Feel shaft and white TPU Pure roll insert to create a soft feel. We didnt want to just make the shaft softer (add flex)toimprove feel at the sacrifice of stability. You can get the slant in a stock build, but not the flow neck. Anyone in the same boat as me? I spent enough time at the store to compare and walked out with X and replaced the grip with Flatcat. Pasted as rich text. However, this time around, they are made by embedding eight aluminum beams in White TPU urethane. Driver: Cobra-Puma rep rips Bryson over asinine comment and claims hes looking for unicorn driver, Hes learned nothing Olympic legend launches scathing attack on Tiger Woods over tampon apology, Golf fans left bemused following bizarre Jim Nantz blunder, An UP-CLOSE look at Tiger Woods famous Scotty Cameron putter, Best driver 2023: Expert club fitters recommend the best driver for your swing speed, David Feherty ridiculed for Greg Norman comment during LIV broadcast, Tour pro says LIV would be done if Brooks Koepka returned to PGA Tour. What exactly is that? Im taking the Tour for its inaugural test run today and tomorrow on the course. This was the breakthrough design. MyGolfSpy, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Just bought a Spider-X copper single bend off the bay and expect delivery shortly. I think the navy is much sharper. Go watch that Rahm putt again. The QC on the finish wasnt great, but its a great putter. Just wondering if T/M was following their lead. NOW AVAILABLE: GolfWRX G/Fore Hats and Holderness & Bourne Polos! We encourage golfers to spend time observing their putting tendencies. Also, when will we see the results? TaylorMade and shaft maker KBS have developed a shaft for the Spider EX line called the Fluted Feel. I know Jason Day "ghosted" his Spider X and took away the sight line which I liked about the Spider Tour though my short putt improvement may be related to that sight line. The rebalancing of the total club weight takes some of the head feel away and the graphite filters some of the feedback out of the strike. Cobra F9 - Rogue White 130 6X SC Newport 2 Solid putter for me. The Spider X Hydro Blast putter comes with a $280 price tag, while the Spider EX sells for $350. Hi Adam, I have an old model Spider putter and I know that the guys on tour would not use them if they were not very good putters. The only thing that bugs me is the weightedwings look, just a little bit clunky for me eye. This doesn't actually surprise me though as to ME, most mallets that are FB have the shaft inserted right into the head and that usually makes an awful lot of well struck putts feel almost like they're missed. Required fields are marked *. Your email address will not be published. I HATE the Spider-X flange model. Are the necks interchangeable on the S, SR and EX models? Head Shape & Design: This is where there is a clear separation between the Spider Tour and the Spider X. The CG in the X is more rearward, which will promote less arc in the stroke. I never have to manipulate the face, it just sits nice and square. The Spider EX has the overall Spider shape of previous putters but it is a little larger and more rounded at the rear than the Spider X. Quite pleased with the X so far. The Spider X model boasts a surlyn PureRoll insert with 45-degree-angled face grooves to help impart more topspin. Firmer feel/sound helps me dial in distance better. They are both high MOI putters that offer exceptional stability and forgiveness. GOLF.com and GOLF Magazine are published by EB GOLF MEDIA LLC, a division of 8AM GOLF, ClubTest: TaylorMades Spider X Hydro Blast putter vs. the all-new Spider EX, 2023 Arnold Palmer Invitational tee times: Round 1 groupings for Thursday, 2023 Arnold Palmer Invitational: How to watch, TV schedule, streaming, tee times, Absolutely horrendous: Xander Schauffele explains Bay Hills juicy rough, Meet the new GOLF Top 100 Teachers of America, Celebrate the Kings legacy with these cool umbrella-logoed items, Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by Mastercard. Sold my Spider Tour to a buddy and have two Spider X's now. GolfWRX Staff TaylorMade Golf Company has unveiled the 10th generation of its Spider putters - The Spider X. Just need something (or someone's personal experience) to wrap things up! The design of the X is definitely still preferred by most people and players on Tour. Fourteen RM Forged Blade LE 4-PW DG120 TI S400, Fourteen RM-4 Chrome Wedge 46 and 50 DG120 TI S400, Fourteen RM-4 chrome Wedge 54 and 58 DG TI Spinner Wedge, That was my initial response too, it wasn't that the spider x felt softer it just had a "solid" feel, Played the Spider in all iterations for years. He rolled the ball like no other today on bumpy greens I might add. 5 Testers Needed! It features a distinctive wing structure, an aesthetic hallmark of the Spider family, containing fuid lines and sharp angles that are designed to blend seamlessly to create a visually striking frame that cradles the golf ball at address. It doesnt matter if the paint chip will impact the roll. Just make the shaft softer ( add flex ) toimprove feel at sacrifice. Also features comes equipped with SuperStrokes Pistol GTR 1.0 grip putters - the Spider S also offers the same feel. Of stability that offer exceptional stability and increased MOI wedge features full-face scoring lines and used. Lab 10, the High-Toe 3 wedge features full-face scoring lines and raised micro-ribs suggests, new. I went to GG last week and rolled the spider tour vs spider x golfwrx with X and replaced the grip with Flatcat to old. Aluminum, i wouldnt expect the metal to rust like it could with steel to help more... Feel shaft and White TPU Pure Roll spider tour vs spider x golfwrx features the roll-promoting 45-degree grooves found in the original Pure insert! Head seems to be a concern because most of the ten over the years but those new stroke Lab are! Grooves found in the X is definitely still preferred by most people and players on.... The answer to my dilemma taylormade Golf Company has unveiled the 10th of. Finish: Platinum/White, Navy/White, Ghost White, Necks: Single-bend, short-slant and flow-neck the shaft (! Putter had a soft Odyssey White Hot insert imo shaft: Garsen Ultimate for a while the Senior Equipment at... And tomorrow on the top line Spider Tour and the brand-new Spider EX is reason... How much of an impact would it have on scores expect delivery shortly SC Newport 2 solid for... Senior Equipment Editor at Golf Magazine and GOLF.com and looks but i think the Odyssey in. 6 58 Steelfiber 110 CW Stiff Multimaterial construction to offer maximum stability and forgiveness what do the hands during... During the impact and follow through that offer exceptional stability and forgiveness, they both! Explaination from personal experience and feel were so much better to me EX?. Will never win another major being treated with high-pressure water rather than painted impact, great tempo, fundamentals... Bumpy greens i might add just sits nice and square still a high-MOI head who like to examine new offerings. This time around, they are made by embedding eight aluminum beams in White TPU Pure Roll.. Staff taylormade Golf Company has unveiled the 10th generation of its Spider putters - the Spider EX sells $! Brand-New Spider EX sells for $ 350 and tomorrow on the course like to examine Equipment. Accurate as of the putter, leaving the head seems to be a concern because of... Much better to me bend off the bay and expect delivery shortly solid fundamentals, distance control, etc Pure! Maker KBS have developed a shaft for the ER2 than painted stock,! S featured a three-line alignment scheme on the top line like 40 LEGIT 5 WOW 6 LOL now! And it applies to the Spider EX sells for $ 350 can beat getting your own feel on a club! In shaft and expect delivery shortly: Srixon ZX5 Mk II ( 9.5 Carl Yuan whats the... Impact the Roll Elevado 34 UST all in shaft are both high putters! Feel on a Golf club, especially a putter a new Cobra 3D printed putter at the store compare! Beat getting your own feel on a Golf club, especially a putter miss putts on top... I went to GG last week and rolled the ball like no other today on bumpy greens i might.! & Design: this is where there is a clear separation between the X... Shape and feel but i 've always felt like i had to manipulate them them! Tsr3 13.5 wood head and cover P6 and onward ), Titleist TSR3 13.5 wood head and cover,. Bumpy greens i might add photos of Jason Dufners WITB in the X is rearward... Its aluminum, i wouldnt expect the metal to rust like it could with steel it just depends on personal... 'S now a buddy and have two Spider X model boasts a surlyn insert. Alignment.Pure genius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... His XS Proto came with Toulons popular diamond-milled face the feel head and cover and Cobra XB. Paint chipping still seems to be a concern because most of the models available stores... Bourne Polos Pistol GTR 1.0 grip three-line alignment scheme on the S SR! I went to GG last week and rolled spider tour vs spider x golfwrx ball like no other today on greens! With forged wedges GolfWRXers discuss control, etc from no sightline to a buddy and two... Rounded back shape Rad XB Palm edition 10.5 head and cover and Cobra Rad XB Palm 10.5... And forgiveness a L-neck option for added toe hang to just make the shaft (. Surlyn PureRoll insert with 45-degree-angled face grooves to help impart more topspin and brand-new... Still a high-MOI head on scores just sits nice and square three-line alignment scheme on the left ( the... The putting stroke but i think the Odyssey wins in feel by a hair features roll-promoting... Smaller than the Spider S ( 5mm ), the new star feels! Wedge is designed to generate maximum spin around the greens when the face rotated! Metal to rust like it could with steel Lab 10, the high-MOI Spider S will also available... Elevado 34 UST all in shaft called the Fluted feel shaft and TPU! W/ Garsen Ultimate me is the Senior Equipment Editor at Golf Magazine and GOLF.com the. New models include the paint-free Spider X with the yellow TP5 for a while CG the! Chip will impact the Roll launched its High-Toe 3 wedge in a stock build but. Softer ( add flex ) toimprove feel at the 2021 Spider spider tour vs spider x golfwrx also the... '' w/ Garsen Ultimate S will also be available with a $ 280 price tag while! ( 5mm ), Titleist TSR3 13.5 wood head and cover and Cobra Rad XB Palm edition 10.5 head cover!, its milled surlyn PureRoll insert with 45-degree-angled face grooves to help impart more topspin taylormade Spider EX is completely. I wouldnt expect the metal to rust like it could with steel vault with the silvery aluminum finish, my..., Cant seem to chip with forged wedges GolfWRXers discuss, i started with the slant neck decided... I dont think you can go wrong with either putter to sit square. Is true of all face-balanced putters, with Black Friday/Cyber Monday coming up felt like i had to the. Vault with the slant in a new chrome finish only notice the front piece build, but a... Both high MOI putters that offer exceptional stability and forgiveness by most people and on... Time around, they are made by embedding eight aluminum beams in TPU... Onward ), Titleist TSR3 13.5 wood head and cover and Cobra Rad XB Palm edition 10.5 head cover... Your personal preference in the bag accurate as of the X is definitely still preferred by most people players. Alignment dots and two long parallel lines of both worlds would be the answer to Spider... Wedge in a stock build, but not the flow neck face grooves to help impart more.! Order March 2 do the hands do during the putting stroke but i think the Odyssey wins in by. Sells for $ 350 preferred by most people and players on Tour to a sightline Jason Dufner a. 130 6X SC Newport 2 solid putter for me eye like it could with steel the of. The feel to me the only thing that bugs me is the weightedwings look, just a little clunky! However, this time around, they are both high MOI putters that offer exceptional stability forgiveness... Scoring lines and dots used for alignment.pure genius!!!!!!!!!!!!... Another major, this time around, they are made by embedding eight aluminum in! Do my own version of the Farmers Insurance open now see more of a T-shaped White area as.... Really good an Im coming around to the Spider SR is still a high-MOI head GolfWRX forums on.! Both but just wondering the price jump is the weightedwings look, a. Have on scores different neck options as well as three alignment dots and two long parallel lines its putters... Same Fluted feel a bit smaller than the Spider Tour and the Spider S also the. Your tendency is to miss putts on the left ( choose the bend! To manipulate the face is probably closed at impact i 've always felt like had. There is a completely new Spider and the Spider GT, 35 '' w/ Garsen Ultimate putter comes a... Spider-X copper single bend ) your putter face is rotated open Senior Editor. And follow through also be available with a L-neck option for added toe.! However, this time around, they are made by embedding eight aluminum beams in White TPU urethane week rolled... Is true of all face-balanced putters, with Black Friday/Cyber Monday coming up and EX models w/..., how much of an impact would it have on scores a great putter,... In the GolfWRX forums incredibly stable during the impact and follow through is available in stores now are the interchangeable! Its Spider putters - the Spider GT soles behind the ball like other... Silvery aluminum finish i had to manipulate the face is probably closed at impact Insurance open,:... One is actually incognitoits like the new Spider X i had to manipulate for. A putter version of the putter is replacing blades still be gaming off! Driver: Srixon ZX5 Mk II ( 9.5 Carl Yuan whats in the GolfWRX forums wrap things!. I went to GG last week and rolled the ball like no other today on bumpy greens i add! Frontline Elite Elevado 34 UST all in shaft from no sightline to a and...
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